Karl

My opinion is that it's too sweeping a generalization. I had the pleasure of completing a century ride (bicycling for 100 miles in a single day). Pain was definitely necessary for that. I had to push myself in training for months to build up to it, and on event day I had to press on when I would much rather have rested. OTOH, my sexual life is generally vanilla, with an occasional moment when I feel a need to submit. In between those BDSM episodes, I get plenty of pleasure from standard boring heteronormative sex, with no pain being involved. So pain is sometimes necessary but not always.

Physical pain: Tie for worst between two encounters with heat. The first came accidentally, when I was a child. I touched something or something touched me – burning stick? Cigarette lighter? The details have mercifully faded. I remember only the pain. The second was in a session. The domme had a candle. One drop of hot wax on my cock was enough; I screamed and safeworded. Emotional pain: I quickly decided that I wouldn’t try to answer this aspect of the question. Canvassing all my painful memories to try to pick the worst would be unnecessary misery.

I've never been marked. Fantasy: A mistress with a Sharpie or gel pen takes ownership of my cock by writing on it: "This cock is the exclusive property of Mistress [name], dominatrix extraordinaire." There are certain practical difficulties, however.

Thanks, franknot, that’s a very interesting Substack piece. The author discusses three aspects of punishment. I didn’t understand the distinction between the first two: training and teaching. In the context of Mistress Lovely’s question, both of these would seem to be earned, in that the Mistress is inflicting punishment for some specific purpose of behavior modification. Whether they’re considered together or separately, though, that idea doesn’t resonate with me. The author mentions classroom discipline as an analogy. The unruly schoolchildren want to talk in class. They also want to be free to leave at the end of the day. They have to weigh the current unhappiness of keeping quiet versus the future unhappiness of getting detention. Because of the threat of punishment, they may reluctantly decide to obey the order to keep quiet. That just doesn’t resonate with me. In a session, my obedience to the Mistress would not be reluctant. I would obey because she ordered it, not because I want to avoid punishment. The author’s third category is punishment “as a raw expression of power, devoid of reason or lesson.” That’s how I understood “[p]unishment you don’t deserve” in Mistress Lovely’s question. The author’s paragraph on that aspect explains, better than I have, why this is what hits me more deeply.

I misunderstood you, for which I apologize. In response to risotto's post about his feelings when he's in a time-limited session, you wrote, "What you have described is obedience within containment, not submission." I thought you meant that submission had to lack that element of containment. That's what made me think you meant lifestyle. If submission can occur in a single session, then I can give you my take on your question. Passivity means simply obeying orders. Submission includes that but can also include taking a more proactive role, to be even more submissive.

From your exchange with risotto, it seems that "submission" connotes, for you, a lifestyle choice. I was addressing it in the context of a single session, which to you is better described as obedience. On that basis, my answer to your question is No: I can draw only on my own feelings and experiences, which are all from one-off sessions. I've never been in a D/S relationship. If I were to comment on that dynamic, it would be just as a keyboard jockey.

They’re certainly related. The distinction is that submission is my active choice. I make an appointment, I show up on time, I tender my tribute, I remove my clothing, and I kneel to await the Mistress. Then, when she enters the room, I voluntarily surrender my agency to her. Even then, my passivity isn’t complete. Of course I do what she tells me to do. In addition, however, I have on occasion taken a more active role in submission, by making a request during a session. For example, when deep enough into subspace, I’ve asked a domme to engage in golden. Being pissed on resonates with me as an extreme act of submission. If I were being purely passive, however, I would do nothing beyond obeying her orders.

I agree. That's why, for me, a "punishment" dynamic is doesn't work well in a session. If the Mistress feels like inflicting pain or humiliation, she doesn't need to stop and ask whether I deserve it. I remember a session in which the domme was amping up the torture. I was screaming with pain and had to use my safe word. Even then, however, I didn't consider it punishment. She was just indulging her whims. Alas, my ability to endure pain wasn't up to the level that would have made a better session for her.

Your focus on context is the key. In most contexts, punishment can be deserved or undeserved. I’m addressing the specialized context of a BDSM session in which one person consensually surrenders to another. Typically, I will tell the domme that I am her slave. We both know, however, that my submission is just for purposes of the session. It’s not like slavery in the antebellum South, where a plantation overseer could enforce discipline by inflicting whipping or other punishment on a victim who had most assuredly not consented. For me, the word “slave” has a great deal of resonance, and “punishment” almost none. It’s voluntary slavery, though. Unlike the plantation overseer, the domme doesn’t have to whip me to ensure that I’ll obey her orders. I’m already eager to obey her orders. What might be considered punishment (pain or humiliation or whatever) is something that I would resist outside of the session. In session, I submit to it solely because it is her will, and I have chosen to surrender my will to hers. The distinction between deserved and undeserved simply doesn’t apply. But that’s just me. From the “Misbehaved Sub” thread – https://www.fortressnyc.com/forum/topic/26444-misbehaved-sub/ – in the Guest Forum, I gather that some dommes and subs are more attuned to the “punishment” dynamic.

I think of punishment as “earned” only if I’ve done something like deliberately disobeying the Mistress – which I would never do. Suppose she orders me to lie down on the floor, and I lie on my back, and she says, “No! I wanted you on your stomach! You’ll be punished for not doing what I wanted.” To me, that punishment wouldn’t be deserved or earned. I did my best. I gather that some dommes and subs get into this idea of an “earned” punishment for some failing, real or contrived. Alternatively, a heavy masochist might earn a punishment as a reward. A domme might say, “For every second you can hold that uncomfortable position, I’ll grant you one stroke with this flogger.” Neither of these scenes resonates with me. The Mistress will punish me whenever and however she feels like it, without needing to put me through a test.

I don't know if the Fortress confers a Submissive of the Year award, but Samurai cupid is going to be hard to beat. Extraordinary!

I immediately thought of two moments, with a common theme. One session was at the Fortress. Headmistress Kang was training a new Mistress, and the session involved more pain than I’m used to. I was concerned that, because I identify as a submissive rather than a masochist, I had been inadequate as practice flesh. My proud moment came at the end: Headmistress Kang assured me “You took a lot.” Glad I could help with the training! In the other session, there was no ground-breaking activity. It was just a feeling of rapport with that domme. (The session included golden with consumption, which I can sometimes do but which is sometimes a hard limit. I had booked this session because I knew the domme enjoyed it.) This proud moment also came at the end. As I was dressing, the domme expressed regret that she had an appointment to go to, because otherwise she would have enjoyed continuing. Imagine – a pro domme wanted to play with me even AFTER the time I had paid for had run out! I assume that, for a Mistress, some sessions are better than others. My proudest moments were when the session with me was one of the better ones for her. Of course, there’ve also been times when I could tell she was disappointed, but let’s not think about that.

For me, also, it was CBT with needles. I wouldn't say it was amazing for me. I could handle it if a Mistress wanted to do it, but I'm not dying for a repetition. Still, I'll never forget the sight of three needles through my cock. Yes, three! Last fall there was a thread on the Devotee Forum about needle play. Mistresses and subs posted about sessions involving scores of needles. I was completely flabbergasted by those posts and the images. I suppose that, by some people's standards, I still haven't done needle play.

Definitely not home. My normal, day-to-day mode is vanilla. Occasionally, though, I feel the pull of submission. People enjoy vacations as a change of pace. The bus driver goes hiking, while the letter carrier goes on a bus tour. I don’t experience submission as an enjoyable change of pace, though. It’s more like a compulsion. I’m grateful that there are beautiful women like you who are willing to cater to perverts like me – but I’d probably be happier if I just never felt the compulsion. I did have some sessions with a therapist. She held out no hope that I could ever be purely vanilla in my desires.

Thanks for the tour! Beginning at 4:41 we see a sort of metal cylinder. You pick it up and put it back down. I confess I don't recognize it -- what is its (sinister) purpose?