Which hits you deeper?

[Mistress Lovely]

Punishment you don’t deserve- or punishment you’ve earned?

Why?

[PainLover]

Well, if pain is pleasure to you (such as myself) than definitely a punishment that I earned 

[lionheart]

The physical form I earned and the underlying attention I don't deserve.

[Mistress Lovely]

22 minutes ago, lionheart said:

The physical form I earned and the underlying attention I don't deserve.

Deserving has little to do with what fate delivers. 

[Jinjadood]

21 hours ago, Mistress Lovely said:

Punishment you don’t deserve- or punishment you’ve earned?

Why?

I would say for me it would be punishment that I didn’t deserve would hit deeper as it would be unexpected. If I’d intentionally disobeyed my Mistress just to get the punishment I was craving then it would be an expected outcome in relation my own actions. 
My Mistress punishing me because it pleases her is unexpected and would hit deeper emotionally.

Either way, I’m in trouble and getting punished 😈

[theDumbMule]

You mean there is a possibility that I have been punished and didn’t deserve it??

Hmmm…who’d a thought?

[bart93]

It doesn't matter to me! Both options are fine!! It also depends on what kind of punishment it is! Anyway, you can do with me whatever you feel like.

[lionheart]

8 hours ago, Mistress Lovely said:

Deserving has little to do with what fate delivers. 

Earning also then. Hitting is irrelevant. Absolute devotion to fate only.

[Mistress Lovely]

9 hours ago, lionheart said:

Earning also then. Hitting is irrelevant. Absolute devotion to fate only.

Devotion spoken plainly is a rare strength

[Mistress Lovely]

16 hours ago, theDumbMule said:

You mean there is a possibility that I have been punished and didn’t deserve it??

Hmmm…who’d a thought?

In a multi-syllabic mood, I see 👁️

[theDumbMule]

35 minutes ago, Mistress Lovely said:

In a multi-syllabic mood, I see 👁️

Is owwowwowwoww multi-syllabic? Or since it’s coming from me that it’s more oww! oww! oww! oww!

I guess I’m asking if you’re more impressed by my use of multi-syllabic words or by my use of punctuation.

[AioriaRegulus]

The punishment that I’ve earned Mistress. Pain travels deeper when the body embraces its arrival. The body can only embrace its arrival when the mind understands or trusts that it is deserved.

[Karl]

On 2/19/2026 at 6:59 PM, Mistress Lovely said:

Punishment you don’t deserve- or punishment you’ve earned?

Why?

I think of punishment as “earned” only if I’ve done something like deliberately disobeying the Mistress – which I would never do.

 

Suppose she orders me to lie down on the floor, and I lie on my back, and she says, “No! I wanted you on your stomach! You’ll be punished for not doing what I wanted.” To me, that punishment wouldn’t be deserved or earned. I did my best.

 

I gather that some dommes and subs get into this idea of an “earned” punishment for some failing, real or contrived. Alternatively, a heavy masochist might earn a punishment as a reward. A domme might say, “For every second you can hold that uncomfortable position, I’ll grant you one stroke with this flogger.”

 

Neither of these scenes resonates with me. The Mistress will punish me whenever and however she feels like it, without needing to put me through a test.

[Mistress Lovely]

1 hour ago, Karl said:

I think of punishment as “earned” only if I’ve done something like deliberately disobeying the Mistress – which I would never do.

 

Suppose she orders me to lie down on the floor, and I lie on my back, and she says, “No! I wanted you on your stomach! You’ll be punished for not doing what I wanted.” To me, that punishment wouldn’t be deserved or earned. I did my best.

 

I gather that some dommes and subs get into this idea of an “earned” punishment for some failing, real or contrived. Alternatively, a heavy masochist might earn a punishment as a reward. A domme might say, “For every second you can hold that uncomfortable position, I’ll grant you one stroke with this flogger.”

 

Neither of these scenes resonates with me. The Mistress will punish me whenever and however she feels like it, without needing to put me through a test.

How do you conceptualize ‘punishment’ in a BDSM context?

[risotto]

Mmm, I don't think I make that distinction.  In a session, for me, it's all play, so I don't really feel it's either deserved or undeserved.  It's all play.  Creative presentation as either deserved or undeserved can be a lot fun though.

[Karl]

13 hours ago, Mistress Lovely said:

How do you conceptualize ‘punishment’ in a BDSM context?

Your focus on context is the key.

 

In most contexts, punishment can be deserved or undeserved. I’m addressing the specialized context of a BDSM session in which one person consensually surrenders to another. Typically, I will tell the domme that I am her slave. We both know, however, that my submission is just for purposes of the session. It’s not like slavery in the antebellum South, where a plantation overseer could enforce discipline by inflicting whipping or other punishment on a victim who had most assuredly not consented.

 

For me, the word “slave” has a great deal of resonance, and “punishment” almost none. It’s voluntary slavery, though. Unlike the plantation overseer, the domme doesn’t have to whip me to ensure that I’ll obey her orders. I’m already eager to obey her orders.

 

What might be considered punishment (pain or humiliation or whatever) is something that I would resist outside of the session. In session, I submit to it solely because it is her will, and I have chosen to surrender my will to hers. The distinction between deserved and undeserved simply doesn’t apply.

 

But that’s just me. From the “Misbehaved Sub” thread – https://www.fortressnyc.com/forum/topic/26444-misbehaved-sub/ – in the Guest Forum, I gather that some dommes and subs are more attuned to the “punishment” dynamic.

[Mistress Lovely]

17 minutes ago, Karl said:

Your focus on context is the key.

 

In most contexts, punishment can be deserved or undeserved. I’m addressing the specialized context of a BDSM session in which one person consensually surrenders to another. Typically, I will tell the domme that I am her slave. We both know, however, that my submission is just for purposes of the session. It’s not like slavery in the antebellum South, where a plantation overseer could enforce discipline by inflicting whipping or other punishment on a victim who had most assuredly not consented.

 

For me, the word “slave” has a great deal of resonance, and “punishment” almost none. It’s voluntary slavery, though. Unlike the plantation overseer, the domme doesn’t have to whip me to ensure that I’ll obey her orders. I’m already eager to obey her orders.

 

What might be considered punishment (pain or humiliation or whatever) is something that I would resist outside of the session. In session, I submit to it solely because it is her will, and I have chosen to surrender my will to hers. The distinction between deserved and undeserved simply doesn’t apply.

 

But that’s just me. From the “Misbehaved Sub” thread – https://www.fortressnyc.com/forum/topic/26444-misbehaved-sub/ – in the Guest Forum, I gather that some dommes and subs are more attuned to the “punishment” dynamic.

Punishment, by definition, presupposes evaluation.

Fantasy or not. 

There is no form of ‘punishment’ that exists outside the categories of “deserved” or “undeserved.”

Force applied without evaluation is simply “violence.” 

[Karl]

4 hours ago, Mistress Lovely said:

There is no form of ‘punishment’ that exists outside the categories of “deserved” or “undeserved.”

 

I agree.  That's why, for me, a "punishment" dynamic is doesn't work well in a session.  If the Mistress feels like inflicting pain or humiliation, she doesn't need to stop and ask whether I deserve it.

I remember a session in which the domme was amping up the torture.  I was screaming with pain and had to use my safe word.  Even then, however, I didn't consider it punishment.  She was just indulging her whims.  Alas, my ability to endure pain wasn't up to the level that would have made a better session for her.

[Mistress Lovely]

7 minutes ago, Karl said:

I agree.  That's why, for me, a "punishment" dynamic is doesn't work well in a session.  If the Mistress feels like inflicting pain or humiliation, she doesn't need to stop and ask whether I deserve it.

I remember a session in which the domme was amping up the torture.  I was screaming with pain and had to use my safe word.  Even then, however, I didn't consider it punishment.  She was just indulging her whims.  Alas, my ability to endure pain wasn't up to the level that would have made a better session for her.

* You concede. 

What distinguishes submission from passivity? 

[Karl]

1 hour ago, Mistress Lovely said:

What distinguishes submission from passivity? 

They’re certainly related. The distinction is that submission is my active choice. I make an appointment, I show up on time, I tender my tribute, I remove my clothing, and I kneel to await the Mistress. Then, when she enters the room, I voluntarily surrender my agency to her.

 

Even then, my passivity isn’t complete. Of course I do what she tells me to do. In addition, however, I have on occasion taken a more active role in submission, by making a request during a session. For example, when deep enough into subspace, I’ve asked a domme to engage in golden. Being pissed on resonates with me as an extreme act of submission. If I were being purely passive, however, I would do nothing beyond obeying her orders.

[Mistress Lovely]

11 minutes ago, Karl said:

They’re certainly related. The distinction is that submission is my active choice. I make an appointment, I show up on time, I tender my tribute, I remove my clothing, and I kneel to await the Mistress. Then, when she enters the room, I voluntarily surrender my agency to her.

 

Even then, my passivity isn’t complete. Of course I do what she tells me to do. In addition, however, I have on occasion taken a more active role in submission, by making a request during a session. For example, when deep enough into subspace, I’ve asked a domme to engage in golden. Being pissed on resonates with me as an extreme act of submission. If I were being purely passive, however, I would do nothing beyond obeying her orders.

You have described logistics and obedience, not submission. 

Are you able to answer my question without drawing on your personal feelings or anecdotes? 

[risotto]

6 hours ago, Mistress Lovely said:

Punishment, by definition, presupposes evaluation.

Fantasy or not. 

There is no form of ‘punishment’ that exists outside the categories of “deserved” or “undeserved.”

Force applied without evaluation is simply “violence.” 

Then, perhaps in the context of a session, "punishment" isn't really the right word.  My experience is similar to Karl's.  I am submitting for my two (or more) hours, but it is contained.  While I'm in that room I will do whatever I'm told, short of courting permanent damage, and I will take whatever I can.  I'm a very obedient sub.  But, for me, that world starts and ends with the little beeps on the door key pad.

[Mistress Lovely]

5 minutes ago, risotto said:

Then, perhaps in the context of a session, "punishment" isn't really the right word.  My experience is similar to Karl's.  I am submitting for my two (or more) hours, but it is contained.  While I'm in that room I will do whatever I'm told, short of courting permanent damage, and I will take whatever I can.  I'm a very obedient sub.  But, for me, that world starts and ends with the little beeps on the door key pad.

Submission is an act. 
Passivity is the absence of an act. 
They cannot coexist. 

What you have described is obedience within containment, not submission. 

[risotto]

To me, that's a purely semantic distinction, so that's entirely fine.  I'm a switch, but I could never, ever, live in a D/S relationship, on either side.  Not a criticism of those who want to.  If that's how one would like to understand the meaning of submission, in the context of total submission, then I understand it.  It's just not for me.

[Mistress Lovely]

10 minutes ago, risotto said:

To me, that's a purely semantic distinction, so that's entirely fine.  I'm a switch, but I could never, ever, live in a D/S relationship, on either side.  Not a criticism of those who want to.  If that's how one would like to understand the meaning of submission, in the context of total submission, then I understand it.  It's just not for me.

Submission has a high physiological cost. 

There is nothing wrong with enjoying obedience as its own form of power play.