Which hits you deeper?

[Karl]

1 hour ago, Mistress Lovely said:

You have described logistics and obedience, not submission. 

Are you able to answer my question without drawing on your personal feelings or anecdotes? 

From your exchange with risotto, it seems that "submission" connotes, for you, a lifestyle choice.  I was addressing it in the context of a single session, which to you is better described as obedience.

On that basis, my answer to your question is No: I can draw only on my own feelings and experiences, which are all from one-off sessions.  I've never been in a D/S relationship.  If I were to comment on that dynamic, it would be just as a keyboard jockey.

[Mistress Lovely]

12 minutes ago, Karl said:

From your exchange with risotto, it seems that "submission" connotes, for you, a lifestyle choice.  I was addressing it in the context of a single session, which to you is better described as obedience.

On that basis, my answer to your question is No: I can draw only on my own feelings and experiences, which are all from one-off sessions.  I've never been in a D/S relationship.  If I were to comment on that dynamic, it would be just as a keyboard jockey.

I have mentioned nothing about lifestyle.

My question is: “What distinguishes submission from passivity?” 

No credentials required. 

[Karl]

1 hour ago, Mistress Lovely said:

I have mentioned nothing about lifestyle.

My question is: “What distinguishes submission from passivity?” 

No credentials required. 

I misunderstood you, for which I apologize.

In response to risotto's post about his feelings when he's in a time-limited session, you wrote, "What you have described is obedience within containment, not submission."  I thought you meant that submission had to lack that element of containment.  That's what made me think you meant lifestyle.

If submission can occur in a single session, then I can give you my take on your question.  Passivity means simply obeying orders.  Submission includes that but can also include taking a more proactive role, to be even more submissive.

[GentlemanRoleplayer]

3 hours ago, Mistress Lovely said:

"What distinguishes submission from passivity?”

Choice.

[Mistress Lovely]

1 hour ago, Karl said:

I misunderstood you, for which I apologize.

In response to risotto's post about his feelings when he's in a time-limited session, you wrote, "What you have described is obedience within containment, not submission."  I thought you meant that submission had to lack that element of containment.  That's what made me think you meant lifestyle.

If submission can occur in a single session, then I can give you my take on your question.  Passivity means simply obeying orders.  Submission includes that but can also include taking a more proactive role, to be even more submissive.

Containment is what allows submission to happen. The safety of the bedroom.

 

Obedience is lying in the bed.

Requests (such as for GS) are asking for pillows.

Submission is the transition between states. A surrender of defenses, like the surrender of awareness when you fall asleep.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting to simply receive orders or sensation; but it isn’t the same as participating in a dynamic. 

Lying in bed is a lovely activity in its own right, but it doesn’t create sleep by itself.

Allowing your psyche to be seen touched that way is more intimate than many people are able to afford. 

[need to serve]

On 2/19/2026 at 6:59 PM, Mistress Lovely said:

Punishment you don’t deserve- or punishment you’ve earned?

Why?

Punishment that I do not deserve hits harder.  As a submissive who strives to please and obey, undeserved punishment can be confusing and frustrating.

[franknot]

On 2/21/2026 at 10:01 PM, Mistress Lovely said:

How do you conceptualize ‘punishment’ in a BDSM context?

  I've already commented on this and my views haven't changed. 
  I've always preferred to think of it as 'discipline'.. it seems more elegant,  more civilized.
And, as with a child, discipline helps to distinguish between right and wrong and focuses on correcting behavior going forward.
 For someone (sub or child) who simply doesn't understand a concept it need not be a question of deserving or not deserving but can be shaped as a necessary learning experience that helps you to fit in. 

[franknot]

On 2/22/2026 at 4:28 PM, Mistress Lovely said:

* You concede. 

What distinguishes submission from passivity? 

  Passivity could be considered lazy submission.. contributing nothing.. no thought or imagination towards enhancing the deeper, emotional urge to be owned and completely controlled. 
      *  *  *
  And as for submission in general .. Is there such a thing as submission to a taboo 'thought' ?
 I recently found myself seriously considering the possibility of acting out an extremely hard limit. 
This possibility was inspired by a few random Forum comments, and started to take hold to the point where I experienced one of those hazy four-in-the-morning half-dreams that was scary enough for me to make note of in my journal. 

  While a 'thought' isn't as irreversible as an action, mental submission still feels like submission. 

[franknot]

On 2/22/2026 at 11:28 AM, Mistress Lovely said:

Punishment, by definition, presupposes evaluation.

Fantasy or not. 

There is no form of ‘punishment’ that exists outside the categories of “deserved” or “undeserved.”

Force applied without evaluation is simply “violence.” 

  Mistress.. Could you consider a third or sub-category..  'Clarification' .. punishment being used as a tool or instrument for teaching .. to drive home a point of what should ..'be'..  from this point in time forward.

[Mistress Lovely]

32 minutes ago, franknot said:

  I've already commented on this and my views haven't changed. 
  I've always preferred to think of it as 'discipline'.. it seems more elegant,  more civilized.
And, as with a child, discipline helps to distinguish between right and wrong and focuses on correcting behavior going forward.
 For someone (sub or child) who simply doesn't understand a concept it need not be a question of deserving or not deserving but can be shaped as a necessary learning experience that helps you to fit in. 

Punishment = chisel

Discipline = architecture 

[franknot]

15 minutes ago, Mistress Lovely said:

Punishment = chisel

Discipline = architecture 

  But they complemented each other beautifully in ancient Rome.

  Why not here?

[Mistress Lovely]

1 hour ago, franknot said:

  But they complemented each other beautifully in ancient Rome.

  Why not here?

This is Sparta.

[franknot]

6 minutes ago, Mistress Lovely said:

This is Sparta.

 And you are both the chisel and the hammer.. while I will be the residue.

I yield to my  Mistress  Goddess.

[noviceButCurious]

On 2/19/2026 at 6:59 PM, Mistress Lovely said:

Punishment you don’t deserve- or punishment you’ve earned?

Why?

Punishment you don’t deserves is more thrilling, I see it as my mistress unloading her raw desires. Being a brat and getting spanked is one thing, but getting humiliated and trained to take toys like a slut even when you were a obedient slave is 🔥😩

[subjman]

On 2/19/2026 at 5:59 PM, Mistress Lovely said:

Punishment you don’t deserve- or punishment you’ve earned?

Why?

In the end, the only answer would be which one You would enjoy most. Regardless of how a supplicant decided, unless Your enjoyment was present, neither decision would matter.  Not being obtuse, but just understand the nature of nature.

[job1617]

The punishment I deserve. There is nothing worse for a submissve knowing that he has failed his Mistress. The punishment be it physical or psychological does not compare to the subs feeling of failure. I love my Mistress. She takes care of me. She guides me. She is the most powerful force in my life. Yet, I failed and deserve punishment. It hurts so much because of what she means to me. 

[Mistress Lovely]

26 minutes ago, job1617 said:

The punishment I deserve. There is nothing worse for a submissve knowing that he has failed his Mistress. The punishment be it physical or psychological does not compare to the subs feeling of failure. I love my Mistress. She takes care of me. She guides me. She is the most powerful force in my life. Yet, I failed and deserve punishment. It hurts so much because of what she means to me. 

What does absolution cost?

[franknot]

On 2/24/2026 at 5:17 PM, Mistress Lovely said:

Punishment = chisel

Discipline = architecture 

  Mistress..  But isn't it relative?

  In the right hands both can bring their own beauty and inspiration to a scene.

 

[job1617]

On 2/27/2026 at 6:45 PM, Mistress Lovely said:

What does absolution cost?

Everything. I would do anything to be forgiven by my Mistress.  Failure on my part is to terrible to think about. I get emotional thinking she could ignore me for days or weeks at a time if she chose or the unthinkable by discarding me. For absolution there is no price I would be unwilling to pay for it. 😢

[Mistress Lovely]

3 hours ago, franknot said:

  Mistress..  But isn't it relative?

  In the right hands both can bring their own beauty and inspiration to a scene.

 

A blueprint defines intention; a tool executes force. They are not interchangeable.
 

Punishment impacts material.

Discipline determines what that material becomes.

 

On what basis do you assume that beauty is the objective? 

[Ford Ranger]

This is such a hard one to answer, but I think I’ve divided it this way in my head. 

Punishment I haven’t earned is just sacrifice. A Mistress wants something to strike or a to see what happens if I am twisted “just so,” and I’m happy to offer my body for Her amusement. it’s not punishment because it’s not really about me. It’s why I like being a sub for trainings so much.  I feel like I’m actually serving!

Punishment I have earned is restitution or absolution. It’s required to reset the dynamic to rebalance the table. To allow me to come back to the table. 

I love them both but the way they feel is definitely different.  I enjoy the first one more, but sometimes I have a need for the second. 

[Mistress Lovely]

1 hour ago, Ford Ranger said:

This is such a hard one to answer, but I think I’ve divided it this way in my head. 

Punishment I haven’t earned is just sacrifice. A Mistress wants something to strike or a to see what happens if I am twisted “just so,” and I’m happy to offer my body for Her amusement. it’s not punishment because it’s not really about me. It’s why I like being a sub for trainings so much.  I feel like I’m actually serving!

Punishment I have earned is restitution or absolution. It’s required to reset the dynamic to rebalance the table. To allow me to come back to the table. 

I love them both but the way they feel is definitely different.  I enjoy the first one more, but sometimes I have a need for the second. 

I have a strong streak of moral sadism. 

There is more heat in a man choosing to fracture his self-imposed discipline in service of my will than in one who simply receives punishment.

 

Rules are a medium, not a refuge. 

[franknot]

On 2/19/2026 at 6:59 PM, Mistress Lovely said:

Punishment you don’t deserve- or punishment you’ve earned?

Why?

     * I've had trouble articulating my thoughts while following the back and forth opinions on this topic. *

  As if in answer to my wrong-headed refusal to be guided by Mistress Lovely's usual no-nonsense brevity, this substack post appeared the other day and in the first sentence addressed my concerns about Punishment v. Discipline.

  (* from the post) * " In the realm of Femdom relationships, punishment serves as a cornerstone, far beyond mere discipline. Rooted in deep Power Exchange, these dynamics thrive on trust, communication, and mutual fulfillment." *

  It goes on to very clearly explain the finer points of 'Punishment' within the FemDom dynamic in a logical way... And I was surprised to find how accurately it represented my overall mindset.

  As for the 'don't deserve' or 'earned' issue the author clearly comes down on the side of 'don't deserve'. 
   * "...delivering a caning “because I can.”  This “for no reason” punishment strips away illusions of fairness, absurd assumptions of negotiation possibilities, plunging the sub into subspace— in the dark depth of the headspace of surrender." *

  https://open.substack.com/pub/nucai/p/the-multifaceted-role-of-punishment?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=253sjo 

[Karl]

Thanks, franknot, that’s a very interesting Substack piece.

 

The author discusses three aspects of punishment.  I didn’t understand the distinction between the first two: training and teaching. In the context of Mistress Lovely’s question, both of these would seem to be earned, in that the Mistress is inflicting punishment for some specific purpose of behavior modification.

 

Whether they’re considered together or separately, though, that idea doesn’t resonate with me. The author mentions classroom discipline as an analogy. The unruly schoolchildren want to talk in class. They also want to be free to leave at the end of the day. They have to weigh the current unhappiness of keeping quiet versus the future unhappiness of getting detention. Because of the threat of punishment, they may reluctantly decide to obey the order to keep quiet.

 

That just doesn’t resonate with me. In a session, my obedience to the Mistress would not be reluctant. I would obey because she ordered it, not because I want to avoid punishment.

 

The author’s third category is punishment “as a raw expression of power, devoid of reason or lesson.” That’s how I understood “[p]unishment you don’t deserve” in Mistress Lovely’s question. The author’s paragraph on that aspect explains, better than I have, why this is what hits me more deeply.

 

 

[Mistress Lovely]

3 hours ago, franknot said:

     * I've had trouble articulating my thoughts while following the back and forth opinions on this topic. *

  As if in answer to my wrong-headed refusal to be guided by Mistress Lovely's usual no-nonsense brevity, this substack post appeared the other day and in the first sentence addressed my concerns about Punishment v. Discipline.

  (* from the post) * " In the realm of Femdom relationships, punishment serves as a cornerstone, far beyond mere discipline. Rooted in deep Power Exchange, these dynamics thrive on trust, communication, and mutual fulfillment." *

  It goes on to very clearly explain the finer points of 'Punishment' within the FemDom dynamic in a logical way... And I was surprised to find how accurately it represented my overall mindset.

  As for the 'don't deserve' or 'earned' issue the author clearly comes down on the side of 'don't deserve'. 
   * "...delivering a caning “because I can.”  This “for no reason” punishment strips away illusions of fairness, absurd assumptions of negotiation possibilities, plunging the sub into subspace— in the dark depth of the headspace of surrender." *

  https://open.substack.com/pub/nucai/p/the-multifaceted-role-of-punishment?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=253sjo 

Life resists decay by intention. 
Discipline is intention made manifest. 
There is nothing ‘mere’ about it.