Phred Posted March 17, 2012 Report Share Posted March 17, 2012 Really interesting discussion. Being new to the scene, I really had no idea that there would be so many raw emotions exposed and experienced during a session. I have found in my sessions, that both defeat and triumph lead to the same end - the desire to be a better sub. If I fail at something in a session, yes I brood over my failure, but this it spurs my desire to do better next time if presented with the same scenario. If I triumph at something (and actually survive a session ), it means to me that I can up my level of play and try different things. Either way, both emotions goad me on to be a better sub - likely the "growth" that Mistress Zhao is talking about. I would imagine, though, that the concept of defeat/triumph in a session should be mostly internalized to the sub. I think those two words denote some sort of competition. I imagine this should be more of an internal competition within the sub's mind - "can I do better, can I survive more, can I grow more?" If it were to be externalized, I think this would lead to competing against the Mistress - "she won't be able to break me today, I dare her to hurt me today." By competing against your Mistress in a session, I don't think you would be able to give up total control and submit, which would lead to the whole concept of "topping from the bottom". I am definitely guilty of this (hopefully only in the past), and I am trying to get away from it. I'm trying to see my sessions (besides being tons of fun) as teaching and learning experiences. Just my thoughts, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild willie Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Phred being new also i tend to identify with most of your posts. This is no exception. I feel very simular thus far. Many posts and concepts i dont really get but that is ok. <at least in my eyes> I very much like to remeber the words of the old group super tramp........some they do some they dont for some you just want tell. Well some they will and some they wont for some it's just a welll. Finding our levels and reasons <or levels of reason> are quite individualized, keep up the posts bud you are one of they few i get ww Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morozek Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 I take it you're equating the feeling of emptiness and desperation with defeat. As in the grander scheme of life, one who becomes addicted to the high of chemical release during a rather painful, scathing session but feels the emptiness of mundane life without out it, thus needing more? Are you still asking me to explain how I determine to create a feeling of triumph or defeat? Overall, I aim for a complete experience for the client. But the aftermath is entirely up to the client. For example..I know a top who likes to re-enact the exact same taboo scenario over and over. His triumph over his sub seemingly causes a bit of shame afterward, unless the sub truly enjoys the scenario (which most don't). But he always comes back for more, unable to shake this need for a shameful triumph. I think that within his "addiction" to overpower his sub, he is struggling with a twisted morality that can be very difficult to admit (defeat). But by acting out his extremely taboo scenario with an experienced sub, he is channeling this dark energy into a safe avenue of expression (triumph). And to be perfectly Zen about the two examples of addiction you've given, a Winston Churchill quote: "If you're going through hell, keep going." Thank you for clarifying; I wanted to make certain that I was understanding you correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phred Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Phred being new also i tend to identify with most of your posts. This is no exception. I feel very simular thus far. Many posts and concepts i dont really get but that is ok. <at least in my eyes> I very much like to remeber the words of the old group super tramp........some they do some they dont for some you just want tell. Well some they will and some they wont for some it's just a welll. Finding our levels and reasons <or levels of reason> are quite individualized, keep up the posts bud you are one of they few i get ww Thanks WW - I'm not always sure if my posts are "right' or "wrong", but I'll keep trying. Love to read your stuff too. BTW - "Goodbye Stranger" was one of my favorite songs when I was younger. This thread really has me thinking, thought I'd add some more. I strongly believe in the mantra "That which does not kill us makes us stronger". The things that teach us and help shape who we are are our life experiences, which include mistakes, defeats, screw-ups, etc. If everything we did was correct and we made no mistakes, we would never learn and life would be really boring. I firmly believe one of the most important things we can master is how to learn from our mistakes and how to turn this mistake into success. I think this is what separates some of the top CEOs, athletes, military leaders, traders, etc. (men and women) from everyone else - they didn't lay down and roll over in the face of adversity, but used these episodes of adversity as a learning experience and to their advantage. This is the trait I admire most in people I look up to. One of the most amazing feelings in the world (I think) is to overcome and triumph over a stumbling block or something that has been your nemesis for a while (be that at work, in the gym, in your personal life, at the FF, etc.). So damn satisfying to finally climb that summit! One thing I find amusing is when I try to think about this in terms of a session. When I book a session, I always look back at my prior session and think "I screwed up trying X in the past, maybe I can finally handle trying X now". Funny thing is, half the time the Mistress introduces something new into the mix, does not bring X back and I'm back at square one! Argh! Obviously, with more experience I'll be able to do more and not be so damn surprised .... Must keep sessioning.... As always, Mistress Zhao, I find your posts intellectually stimulating and thought provoking. I really, really love learning from your wisdom and experience. MOZ - you DEFINITELY have to do a spy/espionage scenario at the FF!! I did one a few months ago, and it was such a blast! I had a particular scene in mind, but the creativity of the Mistresses I sessioned with took off and we went in an entirely different direction. I won't give details, but I will say it is awfully difficult to come up with the correct 10-digit disarmament code when tied down and being tormented . AKIRAVN1 - I saw the previews for "A Dangerous Method" and really want to see it. It looks really interesting. I love in the preview when Keira Knightly is asked what she felt when she was beaten, and she liked it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outcast Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 To the whole thread ?????????? I must be a fucking idiot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild willie Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 You r fine sod many of us r treading water. I agree Phred after my first session i beat myself like a red headed step child for my ignorance. mZhao is very smart most of the time i get lost trying to follow her direction. Concerning her vocab totally lost as i am not educated. A few times she gave me hell for being a little out of line and i thought "What can she be saying " lol I do however like the stimulationg posts and threads understanding them or not. What does not kill us will truely make us stronger...........Why you little Nietche freak you. The German Philospher totally inspired Tull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkdud Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Hi Moz, To answer your first question, yes. When I create an experience for a client, I have both triumph and defeat in mind. With my triumph of will, I defeat theirs, and this in turn, allows them to feel triumphant as well. Something sensually unexpected that opens their mind, perhaps building a new synapse in their brain. Conflict helps us grow. I do hope that after a client has left the session, they think about it from time to time. Are you familiar with the symbol of the ouroboros? As C.G. Jung puts it, it represents the paradox of duality moving into wholeness through cycles. Duality being the defeat/triumph dichotomy. Without one, you cannot have the other. When you accept both, you are complete. Growth. So essentially..the conundrum you gave of truly taboo scenarios is a rare treat. What's considered taboo is also somewhat subjective. Not all clients have a desired outcome, other than to enjoy the ride. Why did you choose the example of the emotion shame? Mistress Zhao, I can certainly attest to your ability to create new and lasting synaptic connections;-) You're the Johny Appleseed of fetishistic impulses:D. Regarding the internal dichotomous emotional dynamic for subs , I agree with TW and others that self esteem and approval/disapproval lies at the heart of the matter for many subs. Your generosity in facilitating triumph-approval makes for what I think of as a heeling experience and one of growth:-) You definitely have sent me scurrying back now to Jung. LW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outcast Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 They're quoting Nietche and I'm quoting "He who smelt it dealt it" .Ignorance is bliss. Just liked to have alittle rough, dirty fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wild willie Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Yougo sod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morozek Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 They're quoting Nietche and I'm quoting "He who smelt it dealt it" .Ignorance is bliss. Just liked to have alittle rough, dirty fun ...and there's nothing wrong with that. The Mistresses meet us where we are and try to propel us forward, whether we're in for just a bit of fun, wanting to push our boundaries, or even wanting to add depth to the sessions...and that's why we're so drawn to them. @PHRED: the spy/espionage scenario does sound like a lot of fun! Moz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistress Zhao Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 This subject as well as scenarios that may be considered taboo does open up avenues of interest to me. Have you seen the 2011 movie A Dangerous Method? Viggo Mortensen and Michael Fassbender play Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung respectively. I have been meaning watch that film. At the time, two Michael Fassbender films came out simultaneously, and naturally, I chose the one about a desperate sex addict, Shame. What are your thoughts on the A Dangerous Method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistress Zhao Posted March 18, 2012 Report Share Posted March 18, 2012 Mistress Zhao, I can certainly attest to your ability to create new and lasting synaptic connections;-) You're the Johny Appleseed of fetishistic impulses:D. Regarding the internal dichotomous emotional dynamic for subs , I agree with TW and others that self esteem and approval/disapproval lies at the heart of the matter for many subs. Your generosity in facilitating triumph-approval makes for what I think of as a heeling experience and one of growth:-) You definitely have sent me scurrying back now to Jung. LW You are always so full of compliments, LW. I truly appreciate someone who can understand my well-meaning therapies on all levels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeech2 Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 This is a very interesting topic but two questions keep coming to mind: 1. Is this really intimacy that we are talking about? 2. What role does sexual arousal play? Many of the same dynamics exist in a BDSM relationship as in a vanilla sex relationship, the latter of which I have much more experience. By the way, if I crave a BDSM relationship and a vanilla relationship, does that make me bi-sexual? The guys in my fantasy football league may not understand.... What about BDSM as foreplay? I think a good smack around and a bit of worship would get the fires stoked better than a bottle of Chinese Viagra (no one told me not take the whole bottle at once). I am asking of those who have experienced this in their personal lives. I have been involved in this scene for a long time but the most I have ever seen one domme was 3 times and that was spread over a 3 year period. Kind of hard to get in to a rythym or a mutual understanding. I guess you could say that I am stunted in my BDSM relationships. I very much want to change that and take a much deeper dive in to the psyche of it. These discussions help bring different thinking to mind and I much appreciate the candor. Until I started reading this forum, I did not think this type of discussion possible. Sk2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akiravn1 Posted March 19, 2012 Report Share Posted March 19, 2012 I have been meaning watch that film. At the time, two Michael Fassbender films came out simultaneously, and naturally, I chose the one about a desperate sex addict, Shame. What are your thoughts on the A Dangerous Method? I should admit, that I saw Shame as well, as I am not one to pass up a film depicting a desperate sex addict. I did enjoy A Dangerous Method, as I found the subject matter extremely interesting and David Cronenberg is one of my favorite directors. Not what I would consider his best film, but worth watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phred Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 They're quoting Nietche and I'm quoting "He who smelt it dealt it" .Ignorance is bliss. Just liked to have alittle rough, dirty fun I'm totally a "pull my finger" type of guy. Interesting to note Mistress Zhao's discussion of "Shame", etc. Whereas I go to the movies, Mistress Zhao (and the rest of the refined Mistresses at the Fortress) go to the cinema to see films . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistress Mina Jung Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 They're quoting Nietche and I'm quoting "He who smelt it dealt it" .Ignorance is bliss. Just liked to have alittle rough, dirty fun LOL, you just keep on being the dirtbag that you are. I like you that way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Trouble Baby Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 They're quoting Nietche and I'm quoting "He who smelt it dealt it" .Ignorance is bliss. Just liked to have alittle rough, dirty fun Maybe you should quote Marx (Groucho, that is). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outcast Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 LOL, you just keep on being the dirtbag that you are. I like you that way Awwww Mistress Jung, dirtbag is kind of harsh. I much prefer "reformed hoodlum". Sounds more dignified Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outcast Posted March 20, 2012 Report Share Posted March 20, 2012 Maybe you should quote Marx (Groucho, that is). That's the exact attitude I'm trying to eliminate.----- Thada fine boss I'll take glass a dat---- A glass of what??? ---- A glass of lemonate . I think that was Chico Marx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistress Zhao Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 Really interesting discussion. Being new to the scene, I really had no idea that there would be so many raw emotions exposed and experienced during a session. I have found in my sessions, that both defeat and triumph lead to the same end - the desire to be a better sub. If I fail at something in a session, yes I brood over my failure, but this it spurs my desire to do better next time if presented with the same scenario. If I triumph at something (and actually survive a session ), it means to me that I can up my level of play and try different things. Either way, both emotions goad me on to be a better sub - likely the "growth" that Mistress Zhao is talking about. I would imagine, though, that the concept of defeat/triumph in a session should be mostly internalized to the sub. I think those two words denote some sort of competition. I imagine this should be more of an internal competition within the sub's mind - "can I do better, can I survive more, can I grow more?" If it were to be externalized, I think this would lead to competing against the Mistress - "she won't be able to break me today, I dare her to hurt me today." By competing against your Mistress in a session, I don't think you would be able to give up total control and submit, which would lead to the whole concept of "topping from the bottom". I am definitely guilty of this (hopefully only in the past), and I am trying to get away from it. I'm trying to see my sessions (besides being tons of fun) as teaching and learning experiences. Just my thoughts, though. Well said, Phred Everything you need in life is within you. Hearing that defeat drives and motivates you to do better (in life, in session, and otherwise) is a huge compliment. Not that you were aiming at complimenting me with that statement, but it makes me feel like the chemistry and energy is positive enough to move you toward something greater rather than slump and wallow in defeat. Which, in turn, motivates me to challenge you further and energizes me with new creative ideas to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistress Zhao Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 This is a very interesting topic but two questions keep coming to mind: 1. Is this really intimacy that we are talking about? 2. What role does sexual arousal play? Many of the same dynamics exist in a BDSM relationship as in a vanilla sex relationship, the latter of which I have much more experience. By the way, if I crave a BDSM relationship and a vanilla relationship, does that make me bi-sexual? The guys in my fantasy football league may not understand.... What about BDSM as foreplay? I think a good smack around and a bit of worship would get the fires stoked better than a bottle of Chinese Viagra (no one told me not take the whole bottle at once). I am asking of those who have experienced this in their personal lives. I have been involved in this scene for a long time but the most I have ever seen one domme was 3 times and that was spread over a 3 year period. Kind of hard to get in to a rythym or a mutual understanding. I guess you could say that I am stunted in my BDSM relationships. I very much want to change that and take a much deeper dive in to the psyche of it. These discussions help bring different thinking to mind and I much appreciate the candor. Until I started reading this forum, I did not think this type of discussion possible. Sk2 sk2, 1. I think intimacy is a given in sessions. The Mistress and sub are enclosed in a small room together and chances are, she will use her physical presence to overwhelm and coerce you to bend to her will. It may not be romantic intimacy, but I think it fits in the category. 2. 95% of the experiences I've had in sessions is based on sexual arousal. Fetishes, kinks, and bdsm all fall into the area of a certain kind of foreplay. But that is not to say that some subs come for the pure enjoyment of being a masochist under a beautiful, sadistic woman's twisted desires. One of my favorite things to hear is "My name is _____ and I like pain" BDSM is an umbrella term for all kinds of play (and non-play). I consider most foreplay of that nature kinky, unless it extends into a more cerebral territory of power dynamics remaining consistent throughout. Clearly you are of moderate to high intelligence if you're enjoying this type of discussion, so perhaps what you seek is a more psychological approach to being dominated. Your sparse visits to your domme could be out of an unrelenting desire, but it seems that if you were devoted to your own play, you would visit her more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistress Zhao Posted March 21, 2012 Report Share Posted March 21, 2012 I should admit, that I saw Shame as well, as I am not one to pass up a film depicting a desperate sex addict. I did enjoy A Dangerous Method, as I found the subject matter extremely interesting and David Cronenberg is one of my favorite directors. Not what I would consider his best film, but worth watching. Thanks for your recommendation, akira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morozek Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 BDSM is an umbrella term for all kinds of play (and non-play). I consider most foreplay of that nature kinky, unless it extends into a more cerebral territory of power dynamics remaining consistent throughout. I'm trying to get my head around this second statement. If I am understanding you correctly, BDSM foreplay as a means to an end is kinky by nature, but BDSM 'foreplay' in a session (that is more geared toward psychological domination) is not so much a means to the end, but rather the means by which the status quo of the session (top/sub relationship) is maintained? Moz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistress Mina Jung Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Awwww Mistress Jung, dirtbag is kind of harsh. I much prefer "reformed hoodlum". Sounds more dignified You don't consider dirtbag a term of endearment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeech2 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 sk2, 1. I think intimacy is a given in sessions. The Mistress and sub are enclosed in a small room together and chances are, she will use her physical presence to overwhelm and coerce you to bend to her will. It may not be romantic intimacy, but I think it fits in the category. 2. 95% of the experiences I've had in sessions is based on sexual arousal. Fetishes, kinks, and bdsm all fall into the area of a certain kind of foreplay. But that is not to say that some subs come for the pure enjoyment of being a masochist under a beautiful, sadistic woman's twisted desires. One of my favorite things to hear is "My name is _____ and I like pain" BDSM is an umbrella term for all kinds of play (and non-play). I consider most foreplay of that nature kinky, unless it extends into a more cerebral territory of power dynamics remaining consistent throughout. Clearly you are of moderate to high intelligence if you're enjoying this type of discussion, so perhaps what you seek is a more psychological approach to being dominated. Your sparse visits to your domme could be out of an unrelenting desire, but it seems that if you were devoted to your own play, you would visit her more often. My sparse visits are due to logistical issues as I can only participate when I travel. Most of my travel for the past 10 years has been to Asia with stops in Los Angeles along the way. I was fortunate enough to be in Los Angeles last May and was able to experience a session with Mistress Kang. If that is not a psychological experience, I don't know what is. I will make it to NYC this year and hopefully, several times. I am very interested in learning more from you first hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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